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Colorado

Court hears discrimination case against bakery over wedding cake denial

Wednesday, December 4, 2013

Updated: 9:00 p.m. MST

DENVER — A Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex ceremony should not be forced to violate his religious beliefs, his attorney told a judge deciding whether the cake-maker should be made to accommodate gay couples.

But an attorney representing a gay couple countered Wednesday that the baker’s faith doesn’t give him a right to discriminate.

At issue in the complaint from David Mullins and Charlie Craig against Masterpiece Cakeshop in suburban Denver is whether religious freedom can protect a business from discrimination allegations from gay couples.

Mullins and Craig wanted to buy a cake last year, but when one of the shop owners, Jack Phillips, found out the cake was to celebrate a gay wedding, he turned the couple of away and cited his religious faith.

“(His) faith, whatever it may have to say about marriage for same-sex couples or the expressive power of a wedding cake, does not give the respondents a license to discriminate,” Amanda Goad, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, told an administrative judge in Colorado’s Civil Rights Commission.

Phillips’ attorney, Nicolle Martin, said her client shouldn’t be forced to ignore his Christian faith while running the business he’s had for nearly 40 years. She said Phillips feels “privileged to design and create the cakes that celebrate the joyous events of people’s lives.”

“He believes this is a vocation chosen for him by God, and as a man of God, Jack Phillips lives by certain biblical principles,” Martin said.

She said Phillips faces fines if the court rules against him and he continues to refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples.

Judge Robert N. Spencer said he would issue a ruling later this week.

The ACLU in Colorado filed the discrimination complaint on behalf of Mullins, 29, and Craig, 33, who were married in Massachusetts and planned to celebrate their wedding in Colorado.

A similar case is pending in Washington state, where a florist is accused of refusing service for a same-sex wedding. In New Mexico, the state Supreme Court ruled in August that an Albuquerque business was wrong to decline to photograph a same-sex couple’s commitment ceremony.

Colorado has a constitutional ban against gay marriage, but allows civil unions. The civil union law, which passed earlier this year, does not provide religious protections for businesses – a provision Republicans wanted. Democrats argued that such a provision would give businesses cover to discriminate in violation of state law.

“Here, the discrimination was based on who the customers were, and that’s what Colorado clearly prohibits,” Goad said.

Martin has said the case is about religious conscience and that one person’s beliefs shouldn’t be held above someone else’s. She told the judge that Phillips “has a right not to spread a message with which he disagrees.”

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100 more reader comments:

  1. oooooooooo theryre in trouble

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:17pm
  2. I’m gay and I think this is dumb, umm if it’s a privately owned business and they do not want to make cakes for gays so be it, they have that right, just take your business to a place thar appreciates it, not only that if I’m a usiness owner and want to refuse service to people I know are homphobes, would the same standards be upheld, this goes both ways,

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:20pm
  3. if you are a business owner it is well within your rights not to serve any one so if you choose not to serve homophobes that's up to you its your money...i wouldn't serve homophobes at my business either if i had one

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:38pm
  4. Should "privately owned" businesses be allowed to exclude racial minorities? Jews? Christians? Handicapped people?

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:52pm
  5. stupid people, especially if you believe they have the right, we fought to long for rights.....

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:15pm
  6. Your argument doesn't work because LGBT are a minority. When a minority isn't protected against discrimination our democracy doesn't function. Now, the tides are turning. The homophobic culture is changing. It's what we have fought for and it's about time.

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:01pm
  7. Why protest. ..spend your money at a gay friendly bakery

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:25pm
  8. It's not about the cake, its about people accepting things even if they do not support it or understand it.

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:22pm
  9. They are a business and have no right forcing their religious opinions on others which is what fuels their bigotry.

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 11:00pm
  10. Why have businesses that are hostile to gays, that's the better question

    Replied on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 11:08pm
  11. Yuhoooo now they got another thing to show their bigotry, and discriminate us over a goddamn CAKE.. Ohh puhleaseeeee… Give us a break…

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:25pm
  12. I think ALL people should be jailed if they don’t have the same belief system as me, doesn’t everyone?

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:27pm
  13. I do not agree with discrimination, but I believe in freedom of opinions and others beliefs, we want people to accept us or at the minimum be tolerant, so how can we not expect to treat the others same, it would be an injustice if this person was found guilty and went to prison, smh think of it this way, if you were a gay bakery owner and someone odered a cake that was anti gay marriage and you refused to make it , you should have that right!! So just because we do not agree with what their beliefe system we are quick to persecute! ! We are on a slippery slope!!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:28pm
  14. What if it was for a Jewish or Muslim couple? Would there still be a problem?
    I don’t think so, he would most likely of made the cake. All you have to do is survey his past customers to find that out.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:33pm
  15. Very very well said Alizae Jin

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:33pm
  16. protest yes but suing is silly….all businesses reserve the right to refuse anyone service for any reason they choose

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:36pm
  17. Uh I hate to tell u hun but no one has the right to discriminate any one no matter their color or their sexuality none of that should matter if u want to keep ur business going u accept any and all who come in with good money to pay u granted they won’t win their case however the owner might be finding theirself with less customers and possibly a warning

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:36pm
  18. crazy and if they win beware of ingredients :)

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:38pm
  19. go somewhere else , don’t spend your money at a biggots store

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:39pm
  20. The baker is entitled to his beliefs just as he is entitled to all that lost income. Fuck him.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:42pm
  21. So if you believe the discrimination is wrong but say they have a right to refuse, you’r more blind than I thought. The purpose of the right to refuse rule was to not serve people who are causing a scene like angry drunken people or just bitchy customers and so on, not to discriminate against lgbts. I bet if this were about blacks being refused service, youd cry out racism and sympathize with the customers more, get your heads out of your asses.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:43pm
  22. No Jeanette Pierce actually they can’t! They can say that they can or put up a sign, but they cannot discriminate for “any reason they choose!” Having a business is different from what you can decide to do in your own home or what a church can decide to do!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:43pm
  23. This is so ridiculous. First, it’s a total waste of taxpayer dollars to bring this to court. I am in full agreement with broadcasting the name of whatever business is discriminating, but a court case because someone wouldn’t bake you a damn cake…really??? Why would you want to force them, by court order, to bake yours or anyone else’s cake? Broadcast the name of the place and go find someone else to take your gay money for your gay wedding cake. Why put a black cloud over your wedding with this nonsense? And before someone jumps on the “we have to do something” bandwagon…it’s a cake. They are a private business owner, and have the right to refuse service to anyone. You are not being denied access to something that is a fundamental right.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:46pm
  24. Andrea Melendez actually u wouldn’t, I just would say why would you go somewhere, where you or your business is not wanted, in today’s economy a business can not afford to discriminate, and plus the people that are being discriminated against have allies so I’m sure the business would not last, I think its freaking dumb, if they dint want your business then go somewhere else, protest if you want but this owner shouldn’t be in court, or facing possible prison time, if you think so then your a self righteous ass!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:51pm
  25. Shane Miller thank you!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:53pm
  26. Close them down if they wont make cake for all they will make cake for none!!!! Let us see how their pocket book likes that!!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:57pm
  27. Michael Bussee a chruch is a business and they are allowed to turn people away, what about business that have a dress code that, middle class or poor people cant afford and they are turned away, its a form of discrimination economic discrimination, it happens, and if someone doesn’t want to serve/ or do business with a type of person they shouldn’t be imprisoned, let them…

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 4:58pm
  28. I wouldn’t want that right taken away from me, you know what if a group of men with neo Nazi attire came into my place of business or with neo Nazi tattoos or symbols, I want the right to turn them away, or if anti-gay people came in, I would want the right tl refuses them assholes service, so why shouldn’t they have that same right! !

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:03pm
  29. some of you that say who cares are CRAZY…the issue is bigger than the cake….the issue is discrimination which is illegal, and the issue needs to be pushed so we can gain rights that aren’t afforded to us….it’s no different than when people didn’t want to serve blacks and fighting for a change there will be none. it’s a fine line that few cross but if you don’t stand up to it than others to will try to infringe on your civil rights. If someone is so stupid to excuse why they won’t serve a person as a religious belief then they deserve what they have coming to them. I applaud the people who stand up for the minorities they are true heroes.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:09pm
  30. …People do realize that the cake in “let them eat cake” was the batter that cooked over and fell to the bottom of the oven right?

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:15pm
  31. This is stupid! They should be supporting Bakeries that support everyone

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:16pm
  32. I Believe, that a Human Being should be able to walk into any Bakery, and purchase what She or He wants, end of Story!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:17pm
  33. According to federal law a place of “public accommodation” which is a business CAN NOT discriminate based on race, color, religion or national origin! People with a disability are also protected by federal law. States may protect more groups of people if they choose to! If my state protects my rights which are being denied; then suing is a reasonable response! Good for them for fighting for their rights!

    http://www.citizensource.com/History/20thCen/CRA1964/CRA2.htm

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:19pm
  34. I am gay and if someone didn’t want to make my wedding cake, I would take my business elsewhere. Business have the right to refuse service to whoever they choose. I wouldn’t want someone making a special cake for me that didn’t have their heart in anyways. Screw them and move on.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:21pm
  35. I think this is valid. And here is my reason.. they don’t have to make cakes for anyone they don’t want to for any reason they do not want to but when you come right out and saw its because they are gay it makes it discrimination. Just like if you said it was because they were black or Hispanic – that’s discrimination. They could have chosen to back out of making the cake but when you point blank say its because of a persons, race, religion or sex that makes it discrimination.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:23pm
  36. Think it’s time for Costco to make cakes

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:24pm
  37. Who’d want a wedding cake stirred with homophobia, baked with bigotry and topped with intolerance! I’d choke on each bite. But, I also think it’s important to not let these assholes get away with this crap as well. Good luck on your case, hope the owner loses big time!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:40pm
  38. Jeanette Pierce would you be upset if you went to a business and they refused you service for being a woman?

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:44pm
  39. Chaos would ensue if every company denied services based upon personal prejudice. While commercial establishments should have the right to refuse service to others, they should NOT have the right to discriminate. Only private organizations hold that right. There is quite a difference between denying service to a disruptive customer and discrimination. The couple should take their money elsewhere, but that’s not the point.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 5:51pm
  40. must we fight for everything that others take for granted. We had to go to court to get married, we are denied the right to sleep together in some hotels, now a bakery wont even make a cake for a gay couple. I say GET OVER IT to all these folks who have a problem with the gay life style. We aren’t asking them to be gay or even to come to the wedding. IF I walk in to buy cookies are they going to ask my social status and sex preference?

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:15pm
  41. “We have the right to refuse service to anyone.” only goes so far before you start running into anti-discrimination laws. If you deny people service based upon gender, race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation and gender identity then sorry to say, you don’t have the right to refuse service. That phrase actually falls in line more with “No shirt, no shoes, no service.” which is more so, if you’re disrupting business in any way, then to protect their business they hold the right to have you removed from their premises. Being a bigot out right doesn’t count. Then again, their loss. I’m sure they could’ve used the business then and into the future. Same goes for anyone refusing transwomen bridal services. If you can discriminate so blindly as to refuse people wanting to give you money for a service or product in return then you should win a prize. The biggest ass of 2013 award.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:17pm
  42. Just go somewhere else.. businesses get more business from word of mouth and the way things are going they are gonna feel it sooner or later!!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:19pm
  43. again. go to a differnt bakery

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:28pm
  44. I would not give these bigots my business. .they can take their pastries and shove it up their. …..

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:29pm
  45. What’s the point? Just go to a different bakery. They’re the one’s losing business. There are easy ways to solve these problems without the use of royal decree, so stfu and use them.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:31pm
  46. All they are getting is support from the homophobes that agree with them … congrats you gave them publicity

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 6:38pm
  47. Yeah alizaejin. . I’m confused I am gay and I do own a bakery and i would like to think that as the owner i have the right to refuse service to anyone. . I have had people want to place orders and I have said no because of various reasons (never of coarse this one) but i would like to think as the owner i have that right. . but i guess i dont. . and as a gay person – i wouldnt want to spend my money there!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 7:35pm
  48. So… fighting for the right to give bigoted assholes your money? If they are anti-gay, i WANT them to refuse my business so I don’t end up giving my money to a bigot who will then turn around and use that money to promote political causes and candidates who fight against me,

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 7:50pm
  49. PLAIN OUT DISCRIMINATION…………………..

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:04pm
  50. Can these people afford to turn business away, just no one go there for a week they will be begging to make the cake then. Who the h—-l cares who the cake is for, its business. Romayne

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:08pm
  51. To all the idiots who r saying go to another bakery, have you EVER been told you can’t have something bc your straight??? I think not… We must fight for EQUAL RIGHTS for everyone… Do Not push this under the rug!!!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:14pm
  52. I think every business has the right to refuse service. We also have the option to choose where to take our business.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:17pm
  53. I’d have written an open letter to the press and slammed them on FB not wasted time and money on a court case. There are better ways to besmirch a name if you’re smart. This is such a waste of time to drag it through court. I can’t see why you would want a cake from there anyway.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:25pm
  54. Let them eat cake!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 8:40pm
  55. Why would anybody want to support somebody who would discriminate against them if they could? smmh

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:08pm
  56. because it is illegal in CO to discrim based on sex orientation

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:19pm
  57. I absolutely love cake because gay cakes are the sweetest! :D

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:25pm
  58. In all seriousness, why sue over this when it would have been far easier to find another bakery that wasn’t run and owned by hateful asses? Word of mouth among the community, and I don’t mean only the LGBT community, would have very likely hurt that business, afterwards.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:27pm
  59. Hasn’t the Court already heard cases like this during the civil right movement? What makes the bakery owner think they stand any chance?

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:32pm
  60. I wouldn’t necessarily protest I would just take my business else where find a bakery that would be happy to make me a cake

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:33pm
  61. Honestly, if you don’t want my money, fine, I will spend it elsewhere and tell my friends to do the same. Your loss. Going to court is just a waste of time and energy. Do you really want something from someone who doesn’t want to give it you? You’ll just end up with a bad experience and a lousy product.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 9:48pm
  62. I’m sorry but I’m not going to force someone to like what I do, anymore than I’d let someone force me to like what they do. Go to another damn bakery.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:07pm
  63. exactly! put your money where your mouth is, spend you dollars someplace worthy of them!

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:12pm
  64. This is ridiculous. It’s just CAKE. Get over it.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:24pm
  65. I say just post the name of the place and let nature take it’s course…in time business will fall off and they will see that they were wrong.
    Don’t let them win by giving them all this attention.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:27pm
  66. Id like to ask those of you saying “It’s just a cake, go somewhere else!”.. Would you have also said to Rosa Parks “it’s just a seat, get up & get on another bus!”?????

    I live in OR where one of these types of prejudice bakers are. I can tell y’all for a Fact that what the bakery here did by telling someone they won’t serve them biased on the bakery owners own prejudice is illegal by OR business laws. If you are going to run a business you MUST follow the laws you agree to when signing up for a business license. If you are not willing to follow the law then DONT GET INTO A BUSINESS.
    If business are allowed to discriminate AT ALL then we should just bring back the Jim Crow laws & segregation.

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:40pm
  67. Some people are so STUPID, there’s enough crap going on in this worid to be worrying about who your baking a cake for

    Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 at 10:58pm
  68. We like cake

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:11am
  69. In my opinion, if it’s legal to discriminate against someone simply for being gay, it should also be legal to discriminate against someone simply for being a Christian, or in this case, a “Christian”.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:16am
  70. If they would have turned down doing a came because the couple was a minority there would have been a war… Discrimination is discrimination. Period.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:18am
  71. well, really, they are a minority.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 11:16am
  72. So you are ok with forcing people to do business against their will it seems? Im sorry but me and my boyfriend believe that business like all interactions should be voluntary and not forced at the threat of governmental guns.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:23am
  73. So you advocate to going back to the days when blacks were forced to sit in the back of the bus and drink from separate water fountains? What if the business displayed a sign that said "No Jews allowed" or (perhaps, in your case) "No Wops." Or just "No Fag Weddings"?

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:28am
  74. "So you are ok with forcing people to do business against their will it seems?" Yes, quite okay. You don't get to discriminate based on who people are... it's truly not so difficult of a concept.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:28am
  75. Guess what there are PLEANYTY of people I could instead do business with. To force a person to do business with you is no better then theft or robbery. If you want others to respect your rights then you must respect theirs. I dont like discrimination but its a persons right to be douche bag if they wish. The only people that cant discriminate is the government be it federal, state, city, or town because they get your tax money and thus must provide equal services to all. A business owner should not be forced to sell to or do work for anyone if they dont wish to.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:32am
  76. You really don't understand the concept of discrimination, do you? #CantArgueWithStupid

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:10am
  77. You dont understand the concept of freedom do you? And the fact that you use hash tags already tells me more then I need to know about your level of mental wattage.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:11am
  78. Boycott the bakery! Then let’s see them cry their eyes out.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:29am
  79. there was another incident like this that happened to a bakery who denied a cake to a gay couple in oregon in that case they had to shutdown the bakery from so much abuse and backlash from pro-gay groups, they received death threats and there have been break ins both in their bakery and their home. they struggle to meet financial needs because they disagree with your view. they have 5 kids and even had to home school them because they were being harassed at school. the husband had to come out of retirement to support their family because they couldnt pay the bills, all because they disagree with your view on gay marriage. they did nothing wrong they were well within their right to deny selling the couple their product but because of these pro-gay activists they have ruined their lives

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 5:56am
  80. Ok Patrick Francis the threats and break ins are wrong but guess what if you do things as a business owner that the public doesnt like you WILL go out of business and that is your own fault. I am against forcing business owners to do business against their will but if they piss off their customers well that is their own fault as you ought to remember that you depend on the community to stay in business.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 6:24am
  81. I live in OR where one of these types of prejudice bakers are. I can tell y’all for a Fact that what the bakery here did by telling someone they won’t serve them biased on the bakery owners own prejudice is illegal by OR business laws. If you are going to run a business you MUST follow the laws you agree to when signing up for a business license. If you are not willing to follow the law then DONT GET INTO A BUSINESS.
    If business are allowed to discriminate AT ALL then we should just bring back the Jim Crow laws & segregation.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:31am
  82. First of all jim crow and the rosa parks deal all would be mostly STATE, FEDERAL, OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT discriminations which I already told you why those are not allowable in my second post. Secondly why the hell would you be dumb enough to give money to people that HATE you? Do you donate to Focus on Family or other anitgay groups? Why not BECAUSE THEY LOATH US and supporting them via money makes you a jackass. Just like wanting to buy from a baker that hates you. Just because something is law doesnt make it right just like the jim crow laws you tossed out so predictably. I am for FREEDOM and not FORCE and if your only way to deal with others is force you are lowered to the level of animals.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:08am
  83. Id like to ask anyone saying “It’s just a cake, go somewhere else!”.. Would you have also said to Rosa Parks “it’s just a seat, get up & get on another bus!”?????

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:32am
  84. Daniel there are business laws in place that are agreed to when signing up for a business license. Each state has their own but no matter what state you live in you do not have the right to break that states laws if you are going to do business there.
    Some towns (like the one my folks live in) only have 1 baker, cafe, market, ext.. Where should I shop if all these places are allowed to tell me, because of their own prejudice, that I can’t shop there?

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:37am
  85. Michelle, The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits businesses from discriminating on the basis of race, religion or gender, but not sexual orientation. If I own a private business such as a bakery I can deny anyone I want. why do you think if i own a bar i can deny someone another drink if they have too much, or if im a sales rep and someone makes a scene or starts an unnecessary argument i can ask them to leave or call the police. what if you own that bakery and a customer was saying obvious racist and antigay remarks do you think you should be "forced" to sell them your product? please back up your claim of these "business laws" that force the owners to sell their products to a customer. bottom line it is their business and it is their right to sell their product to whoever they want who are you to tell them they are forced to do so

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 5:29am
  86. But cake will make me fat…

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 2:40am
  87. A business license is a legally binding covenant between the owners, the government, and the general public at large.

    Opening a business is a special privilege and a binding legal contractual agreement to provide a useful service or product to all of the general public at large upon their surrendering their cash in exchange for said service or product.

    As part of this privilege of sucking their profits out of the public trough, business owners should in all cases be required to serve every paying customer professionally or surrender their business license for breaching their contract and be fined for their discrimination.

    Open a private, members-only club and discriminate all they want against their limited membership who can purchase from them, but if they want to profit from the public’s generosity, they do not get to pick and choose…

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:32am
  88. Daniel…
    Wow “the Rosa Parks deal”… Those words speak volumes about how you feel about civil rights. You can say you are for freedom & equality but by that single statement you have shown you only believe in it for yourself or those like you.
    I fight for everyone’s rights.
    You are free to be prejudice against me as a person but you as a business can Not tell me that I can’t shop/eat there because of your feelings towards me & visa versa.
    I brought up the Jim Crow laws as an example of what can happen if the State & Federal business laws of anti-discrimination are allowed to be taken away & business are free to discriminate again.
    The business licensees are issued by the State therefor making the breaking of that law a state issue.
    You didn’t answer my question about where am I to spend my gay $$ in a town with only 1 market or baker??
    How is it stupid to ask a business (who is Not an person no matter what Mitt Romney & corporations want to belive) to treat me as any other human being & let me shop/eat there?
    I wish with my whole heart that freedom didn’t need to be won by force but unfortunately it almost Always have to be fought for. The making of the US & it’s freedoms were won by force, the freedom from slavery was won by force…

    Btw I see that you debased yourself & therefor negated Any intellectual stand you had by lowering yourself & calling me names.
    A Very mature way to deal with a discussion.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:40am
  89. Im sorry but guess what the VOLUNTARY interaction of two people for the exchange of goods or services shouldn't NEED a permission of the state to take place. In simpler terms a business licence is just a total sham that is one more way for the state to control and steal from the people. The fact that you are simple enough to weep to the state to enforce your "Right" to anothers goods or service is a sign of how slow the LGBT community is and why I avoid it despite being bisexual. First of all what "right" can you possibly claim to another persons property (a good) or time/effort (a service) in order to demand they give said items to you? Secondly your reliance on the state which has been the biggest freaking oppressor of the LGBT community just shows how easily you are hoodwinked. Im sorry but I fight for the right for all people to live free of any kind of force unless they start to use force against others. Guess what yes that means that if a black man wanted to tell me to take my cracker behind out of his store as much as I would be insulted I would stand by his right to do so. Because I have no right to demand access to HIS store, HIS goods, or HIS time. He would just face the risk of not getting my money or the money who found his business ethics in poor taste. As to your question as to where you can spend your money if no on in your town wanted to do business with you im sorry but the answer should be glaringly obvious there is ONLINE to order items or ooooh idk DRIVE the 20 or 30 minutes to the next major town that I am willing to bet has someone that only cares that you are a paying customer. Seriously how daft does one have to be to FUND those that hate us just for being as we are? If you want to do business with those sorts of people why not just donate to the West Barrow Baptists while we are at it?

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 4:28am
  90. I miss paragraphs

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 7:43am
  91. The bigger problem is that they pretended to take the order, then deliberately charged them for something they knew would ruin the intent of the occasion. Imagine if you wanted a birthday cake for your 8 year old, and when you opened it up to serve it the cake said “Happy B-Day you little bastard, from your REAL dad”. You’ve paid for the cake, taken it home, and you don’t have time to get a new one.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 4:48am
  92. Daniel
    I’m happy for you that you are blessed to have enough money to have internet, money enough for gas, & car but not everyone enjoys such luxuries as you or I do. To assume that Everyone can just so easily shop someplace else or even that the next Big town is only just 20 or 30 miles is total ignorance. You do realize there are places people live that are in the deep woods or country & the next town is the one that has only 1 market?
    In the town my folks live in there are more than a few family’s that scrape everything they have together just to have their house, warmth, & food. They don’t have the extra money for extra things like internet, tv, or gas for any other place other than work & back. That is if they are even lucky enough to have a car at all or one that doesn’t need repairs. Btw just because someone is that poor doesn’t mean they don’t work their butts off for the little bit they have.
    I wish we all could lived in the utopia that you seem to live in but not everyone in this country has the same luxuries you take for granted.
    I do have many Many issues with the government but I do believe in regards to equality unfortunately it is needed. People have shown time & time against that if there were not laws in place that they would strip away from minorities the very freedom you take for granted. The same ones that have Always been granted to you as a white male are being given to Others FINALLY. Our government is broken but I’d rather be here with the strives being made in equality for All than in a country such as Russia who is striving to kill equality & those who speak up for it.
    If you don’t like how the laws of the land protect us All then do 1 of 2 things, vote in the people who think like you & live with it if they don’t win like the rest of us do or move.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 5:46am
  93. Michelle I am sorry but I dont have a car. I am dependent on public transportation for now. I scrimp and save and frankly my only splurge is eating out once a month and the web. I dont have cable. I have not bought cloths or shoes in three or four years. I know what poverty is. Also please dont lecture me about sacrifice or freedom as I served this nation for SIX years in the US Navy. I was not home for many holidays, I worked 19 plus hour days, I sent a man I called brother home in a casket because people failed him. I've spent most of my adult life studying what freedom means. Across ALL cultures, times, and peoples Ive found ONE truth and that is if we do no have the freedom to choose how we interact with people and how we dispose of our property we are little more then slaves. You seem to feel just because a person wants to sell something YOU have the right to buy it. That is demanding a right to said property that you do not have. I dislike bigots and will defend against them up to the point that it doesnt use force against those that dont start force against others but that is it. If a man say NO I dont want to sell to you because you are black,white, gay, straight, christian, or atheist what the hell reason would you have for giving him money? Please tell me how in THIS day and age you can claim right to anothers property at any price they do not agree with? If you want to really claim you are for freedom then people HAVE to be free to do as they wish unless they start to use FORCE against another to stop them from doing the same. Simply saying NO I will not bake you a cake is not force. People to not have to LIKE the LGBT community, they do NOT have to accept us, they just have to leave us the hell alone. Not letting us buy from ONE freaking bakery is NOT going to hurt a sole really. Sure it may disappoint you but guess what life IS NOT FAIR, you cannot make it fair.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 7:30am
  94. Patrick
    I wasn’t just speaking of just sexual orientation when I brought up the federal law in regards to discrimination & the fact that if they were not in place that business would again discriminate. However Colorado states laws include sexual orientation & the bakery does Not have the right to discriminate. If you agree to have a business open to the public & ask the state for the required business license then you & any other business must follow those laws.
    A bar can refuse a person another drink because it is a safety issue & has nothing to do with discrimination. Now if said bar refused a person a drink because they were gay or of a different race or religion then they would be discriminating & breaking the law. Same thing with the disturbing the peace, if you are asking the customer to leave because of that then you are within your rights but if you ask them to leave because you just don’t like that they are Jewish or a woman then you are discriminating.
    Each state has it’s own business laws, if you have a state issued license to do business in that state then you agree to that states business laws.

    Bottom line, If you don’t want to follow the states laws then don’t go into business.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 6:07am
  95. I’ll bake ‘em a cake. It might be lumpy and a little bit lopsided, but dammit, I’d still give it my best. They deserve a wedding cake just like anyone else.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 6:11am
  96. Patrick
    Please do research on the subject you speak of before including them in an argument. I live in Oregon & they were not shut down by the small protest or the gay comunity. Gresham is a conservative city & they where the ones who stopped shopping there. The venues & other wedding coordinators simply refused to do business with a bakery openly broke the states business laws & brought the news into it. The Klein’s were in the wrong & they are screaming out because they’ve been told by the people who live there that they were.
    There has never been any proof of death threats or break ins every time they are asked why they never told the cops about said threats they try to change the subject. Btw there are B&E’s in Every city & a lot if towns so even if it were so (still has not been proven by them tho) how can anyone be so asinine as to believe it was a personal attack. My moms car was broken into should I assume it was by some homophobe? No I figed it was a stupid kid or a junky looking for anything to sell for meth.
    Everything you have claimed has never been able to be proven. The bakery openly discriminated & broke the law, they are living with the same consequences that any of us with a business in OR would suffer for blatant discrimination. They were NOT within there rights to break the law.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 6:24am
  97. Ok Daniel let’s play this how you are posing you wish it to be. Let’s go back to a time when civilization had no government & laws… let’s go back to the frontier times, hmm nope laws & government. How’s about back further to the colonial times, nope laws & government, in fact we Forced those out to create our own Government & Laws. Ok ok ok I got it let’s go way way back in history to Roman civilization, dang it there are those laws & government again.. In fact they helped form our own government & laws.
    I just Don’t get WHY we would keep repeating something time & time again if it’s as horrible for civilization as you are making them out to be.

    I personally am grateful for for my family, friends, & all those that serve to give us this right to speak our minds. I am grateful for the sacrifice so many make & have made for this country & others. I respect All that have died to give this country the freedom to decide on who is in our government & what laws they make or to be able to speak against them if they are wrong.

    I am thankful that there are laws in place that make it illegal for someone to kill me or rape me. I am thankful for the laws that make it illegal for someone to kidnap my son, or to break into my home. I am also thankful for the laws that make it illegal for a business(not a person) to pick & choose who they sell to again as if we were back in the 50′s. I wish there was no need for such laws but unfortunately there Is a great need.
    It’s not just about services it’s about not being treated as a 2nd class citizen. No business has the right to make anyone feel like they are no better than a dog. Not to long ago there were stores & cafés that had signs reading no dogs or Irish. Shall we go back to those days?

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 8:06am
  98. Oh you are hilarious lady. You cannot seem to understand a person has a right to dispose of his or her property as they wish and thats what a business is. A business is nothing more them me saying in exchange for MY property or time or knowledge I demand X amount of dollars. I advertise this fact and then people if they wish come and pay me for said product or services. But if I do not wish to sell my time or property to a person for whatever reason can you tell me WHAT RIGHT you have to demand it? Can you explain how you have a RIGHT to what others own? You seem to think that some how just because I decide to buy and sell items regularly you get some special privilege to purchase them. People have very few basic rights and here let me enumerate them for you since you cannot seem to grasp them: The right to live free of force, The right to defend one self against said force, aaaaand The right to own and dispose of property as they see fit. Thats all thats it. read the Constitution all rights listed in it as being particularly important can be traced to these three. The government has has ONE and only ONE reason for existence to preserve our ability to live free of force, to ensure we abide by our contracts, and if we dont to be an agent of force so that others do not consistently enforce our own safety and contract. THAT IS ALL. A government is there to preserve our RIGHTS not force others to live or do as we wish.

    Replied on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 12:07pm
  99. Oh & Daniel if they simply said “NO I will not bake you a cake.” then we would not be having this conversation. They do not have to give a reason but in most of these cases being brought up they gave reasons. If you don’t want to sell to me that’s fine but by state laws you can’t tell me it’s because I’m a woman, Christian, or lesbian. They broke the law & like any of us that break a law they have to live with the consequences.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 8:15am
  100. Vive les hétéros.

    Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2013 at 3:51pm